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Author Topic: Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!  (Read 6076 times)

Offline AiRdAncE

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 05:21:50 PM »
Ehm, Marv.... could you please get up there in a bird again ? Any bird, I don't care ? And then tell your story again... and have these wizzes tell all sorts of cool stuff and such ?

Man... I love this thread... learned more reading this single thread than with 16 years of flying sims ;)

Offline Killratio

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 07:41:27 PM »
Quote from: "Marvin"


  I think what really got me was the VSI..  It was tuff to hold it so I was not climbing or descending.  



Jody,

Yep, it's called "chasing the dials". There will always be a slight delay in most instruments before accurate information is displayed. If you react as soon as the needle moves you end up on a roller coaster which gets steadily more violent. Throw turbulance into the hat and you have a barrel of monkeys!! The trick (and it takes a while to get the hang of) is to adjust, wait, assess, readjust. That tends to average out the moves and makes things much smoother. After a while it all becomes automatic.

I much prefer aerobatics, it is actually easier and less stressful to throw her around than to try to fly straight and level for long periods. You also eliminate the chasing dials thing because aircraft tend to break if you keep your head in the cockpit while you go tumbling around.


Darryl

Oh, how'd you like Dubai...great place isn't it!!!

Offline lowwing_99

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 09:02:07 PM »
When you move the stick the VSI immediately shows a climb or descent.  At first the needle indicates a trend, then after a few seconds it stabalizes & indicates the rate.  For chasing needles if you can't hold a heading on the HSI, or VOR to keep the needle happy you should pick like a 5, or 10 degree angel intercept to see what happens not being to brash at first.  If the needle comes back into center position you would have to take some intercept out to keep it centered otherwise you are flying to the needle & then through the heading/radial you want.  If it goes to the other side after the intercept you change course & back & forth chasing needles.
On Localizer, On Glide Slope

Offline Jallie

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2007, 10:13:13 PM »
Quote from: "Marvin"
Maestro,

Oh yeah, and I also forgot to mention that the pilot gave me a bigger challenge later, and trimmed out the rudders.  Basically I had to add right foot pressure until the little ball in the level window (sorry don't know the name Falcon does not use that) and hold it straight while the pilot adjusted it with some switch until the pressure released on my foot.

Jody


it works with Falcon !!  

not on ground ....--> but yes in flight :)
__   __

Offline maestro209

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2007, 05:11:31 PM »
Quote from: "Marvin"
Maestro,

Wow, you said a lot of points that I never even realized..  And yes, as we were at altitude there was soldiers who get up and walk around and lie on the gear etc.  (anyone who ever flew in a C-130 knows what I am talking about.  Whenever you get a chance to move around you take it, cause you are packed in there like a can of sardines.)

When I was flying VFR, I basically had the hoizon about 30 degrees up from the dashboard.  I then used the window frames on each side of my window to ref a level flight.  And the lights below to Kandahar city were used to keep  my heading.  I think what really got me was the VSI..  It was tuff to hold it so I was not climbing or descending.  Also, I never flew with a yoke, and it was quite strange for me.  I basically rested my elbow on me knees, and used my fingers to control the yoke.  Turning the yoke was less sensitive compared to to the pitch.  And that was my troubles, keeping the pitch.  Also, there was quite a bit of turbulance, and it seemed like every time the plane bounced, I hate to roll it out etc.

Oh yeah, and I also forgot to mention that the pilot gave me a bigger challenge later, and trimmed out the rudders.  Basically I had to add right foot pressure until the little ball in the level window (sorry don't know the name Falcon does not use that) and hold it straight while the pilot adjusted it with some switch until the pressure released on my foot.

Jody


Jody,

You got it man! People weigh something and when they move it makes that pitch and altitude control "fun." BTW it happens on Passenger Airplanes too. Before the FAA really cracked down on who could be in the cockpit I had many opportunities to ride in the "jump seat" of my fathers old employer (the original not the one that's around now) Frontier Airlines. Ya know those food/drink carts they run down the isle during flight? Well they weight about 300lbs. Watching the auto pilot attempting to keep up with it and pax (pilot jargon for passengers) wondering around the cabin was "neat." You could see the trim wheel spin one direction for several rotations then reverse. This would go on endlessly during the cruise portion of any flight. As the fuel burned off the upper and lower moments of the trim oscillation would widen. In military aircraft passenger comfort is not a priority so at high altitude and high weight the aircraft tends to be "pitch twitchy." When a pilot gains "feel" for an aircraft that "feel" changes when you add weight and raise the altitude. That natural position you as a pilot get comfortable with is no longer correct. Every flight is a learning experience, and yes you gain more knowledge as you add hours, but any good pilot continues evaluating and learning.

I'm glad to hear the pilots gave you a cockpit reference for pitch. That makes a difference and allow him/her the quick out should things head toward over controling. They'll usually tell you to "look/aim for your horizon "spot." At least that's what I do and most pilots teaching tend to do.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this in the last post but it's worht saying again. Turblance SUCKS! It makes holding a precise altitude IMPOSSIBLE, with out electronic assistance.

*Maestro dawns his aerodynamics hat*

So do you know why your right foot was heavy? If you guessed the propellers you would be correct. There are 4 gigantic heavy rotating gyroscopes providing "thrust." Propellers hare interesting because of how they work. Mostly they're wings, and wings as you know produce lift. What?s not commonly known is how they produce lift. The center of lift (in subsonic non swept wings) tends to be towards the outer third (span) and center of the wing (chord). The formula is actually span divided by chord net center of "pressure" i.e. lift. Propellers are no different except they produce more lift on the down stroke of their revolution. That means their relative center of pressure is off the centerline of the rotating disc. American engines spin the propeller clockwise (from the pilots perspective) placing the down stroke on the right of the center of the propeller. Thus a heavy right foot.  

At least on your flight you had "rudder" trim. In my little airplanes we have a "Kentucky Windage" bendy tab attached to the rudder. If you're in flight and you have a heavy foot (Either left or right, though right is the most common) you have to land, bent the tab, a precise "scosh", climb back in and hope for the best. Other wise you'll have a very tired leg when you land. LOL!

Yes in falcon there is rudder trim. (Pulling a typical Deltahawks response) it's this button held down then this button. It's actually on the left side panel with the rest of the trim. It's not generally associated with the stick, at least not in the real jet the "trim" button stock handles pitch and roll. On the trim panel it's labeled as "yaw" trim and is a knob unlike the "thumb" wheels for pitch and roll.

*Maestro removes his aerodynamics hat*

I'm glad to hear some are enjoying these posts. I'm open to any and all questions.

>M
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Offline AiRdAncE

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2007, 06:15:14 PM »
Quote from: "maestro209"

Jody,

... [big interesting lesson here] ...

I'm glad to hear some are enjoying these posts. I'm open to any and all questions.

>M


Oh yeah !! Keep um coming, Maestro ! Great reading !!

Offline maestro209

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2007, 06:24:30 PM »
Quote from: "AiRdAncE"
Quote from: "maestro209"

Jody,

... [big interesting lesson here] ...

I'm glad to hear some are enjoying these posts. I'm open to any and all questions.

>M


Oh yeah !! Keep um coming, Maestro ! Great reading !!


LOL! That's great.. I'll stop hijacking the real reason for this thread. Jody's comming home and bitchen ride for part of the trip!!

I'll start a new thread.
gt;Maestro209

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Marvin

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2007, 12:47:30 AM »
Quote from: "Jallie"
Quote from: "Marvin"
Maestro,

Oh yeah, and I also forgot to mention that the pilot gave me a bigger challenge later, and trimmed out the rudders.  Basically I had to add right foot pressure until the little ball in the level window (sorry don't know the name Falcon does not use that) and hold it straight while the pilot adjusted it with some switch until the pressure released on my foot.

Jody


it works with Falcon !!  

not on ground ....--> but yes in flight :)


Hmmm, you must be referring to F4AF cause I don't use that version!  :wink:

Not too mention, I have talked to many F-16 pilots, and they all stated they never use the rudders except for taxing on the ground.

Jody

Marvin

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2007, 12:54:13 AM »
Darryl,

Oh yeah Dubai is a nice place during the winter months of course!  I hate extreme heat, that place made Afghanistan feel like Canada.  We went there several times in the summer to pick up VIPs, and I cannot stand the hate.  Nor did my weapon..  Everytime I got of the plane, my weapon would sweat from all the condensation and need a complete cleaning and oil job.  (notice I did not use the phrase "lube job" calm down Justin  :lol: )

Guys this is a pretty interesting thread.  I have realized after flying FSX and the real C-130 that Falcon has spoiled me.  Even with the complex version of Open Falcon, I am too use to fly by war, and the fact that Falcon uses an advanced flight model that never needs trimming etc.  I have seen many, many, F-16 HUD tapes and you can cleary see the Viper flies like many other planes in the sky bouncing all around the place.  And yet still our precious Falcon still flies on guide wires.  Not sure if has to do with the coding, or some guys think of fly by wire as perfect flight.  It would be nice to get a flight model that is effected by the changing conditions in the sky.

Just my thoughts nothing more, nothing less.
Jody

Quote from: "Killratio"
Quote from: "Marvin"


  I think what really got me was the VSI..  It was tuff to hold it so I was not climbing or descending.  



Jody,

Yep, it's called "chasing the dials". There will always be a slight delay in most instruments before accurate information is displayed. If you react as soon as the needle moves you end up on a roller coaster which gets steadily more violent. Throw turbulance into the hat and you have a barrel of monkeys!! The trick (and it takes a while to get the hang of) is to adjust, wait, assess, readjust. That tends to average out the moves and makes things much smoother. After a while it all becomes automatic.

I much prefer aerobatics, it is actually easier and less stressful to throw her around than to try to fly straight and level for long periods. You also eliminate the chasing dials thing because aircraft tend to break if you keep your head in the cockpit while you go tumbling around.


Darryl

Oh, how'd you like Dubai...great place isn't it!!!

Offline Killratio

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2007, 03:08:29 AM »
I hear ya Jody...I was in Dubai in high summer. 118deg was our coolest day!!! Sitting by the pool drinking scotch and soda is a bitch!!!!!

Mind you, I didn't have a sweating weapon..just a sweating wife..almost as deadly!!!!

 :lol:  :lol:


The flight models in sims always disappoint me. FSX is great but it still lacks. Funnily enough, landing a sim is much harder than for real (bad weather exluded) the lack of 3d cues is a real hinderance. The Track IR helps a bit but it is still not great. Of course the stakes tend to be higher in RL. I can honestly say that I have NEVER landed in RL without 100% concentration. And if you want a definition of concentration, try a deadstick landing...THAT is high on the pucker scale.

But straight and level at altitude is far too easy in any sim I've flown. I also find that the departure performance is also severely lacking in most sims. Besides, there is nothing a computer can do to you that simulates overcooking a stall turn (hammer head) and falling out forwards. Negative G's and one and a half seconds between pointing straight up and straight down...every sense telling you that you SHOULD be falling sideways!  

The physical sensations during flight are a big part, particularly if you are a "stick and rudder" type. Whilst a lot of them can be misleading (or downright dangerous, ask any IFR pilot) to take notice of, they do add some feedback. This can make flying easier or more difficult depending on the circumstances...but you don't get that in a sim.

Neither do you get your passenger tensing during  a barrell role and popping the sick bag they have filled a couple of minutes previous :cry:  So I suppose sims ain't all bad  :wink:  

Darryl

Offline Nikolas_A

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2007, 11:59:05 AM »
Quote from: "Marvin"
(anyone who ever flew in a C-130 knows what I am talking about.  Whenever you get a chance to move around you take it, cause you are packed in there like a can of sardines.)


Like that?



Nikolas
Great ideas need landing gear as well as wings

Offline maestro209

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2007, 02:14:34 PM »
Quote from: "Marvin"
Quote from: "Jallie"
Quote from: "Marvin"
Maestro,

Oh yeah, and I also forgot to mention that the pilot gave me a bigger challenge later, and trimmed out the rudders.  Basically I had to add right foot pressure until the little ball in the level window (sorry don't know the name Falcon does not use that) and hold it straight while the pilot adjusted it with some switch until the pressure released on my foot.

Jody


it works with Falcon !!  

not on ground ....--> but yes in flight :)


Hmmm, you must be referring to F4AF cause I don't use that version!  :wink:

Not too mention, I have talked to many F-16 pilots, and they all stated they never use the rudders except for taxing on the ground.

Jody


IAW Marvin, I have flown most versions of Falcon4 and they all have coordinated (as in the rudder input is automatic and proportionate to the joystick input) flight controls "in flight." It makes me a very "lazy" pilot. I never bought rudder pedals and just use the joystick to "steer" on the ground. On the other side it makes AR a pain in the arse and if you're performing the "air show routine" you can't do an accurate knife edge pass because the rudder input in game is "bastardized." no offense to the coders.
gt;Maestro209

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Marvin

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2007, 01:25:11 AM »
Maestro,

I agree with you 100%.  That being said I have spoken with 4 different viper pilots at four different times, and they all said the same thing.  The FBW takes care of all rudder inputs, thus they have only used them to steer on the ground.  Not even during AR as well.  So I don't think it is a code thing, just the fact that is the way the jet performes.

Jody

Offline maestro209

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Flying in Afghanistan..... No not in Falcon!!
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2007, 06:24:21 PM »
I suppose a more accurate statement from me would have been "in some version of the F-16." In the sense that Pete Bonani told us (the Deltahawks) that "the 'A' models flew better" (his words). When I asked about the rudder he agreed with my observation of the game ( F4 1.08US ), and stated that the newer updates to the FLCS made the rudders "useless." I've been told by pilots of newer blocks that the rudders are an "aiming" or "pointing" device.

So, Yes Marv I'd have to agree with you.

>M
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MargaretAnderson

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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2010, 05:18:35 AM »
I think we all get a little bit distracted from the main topicstarter's theme