Real Life operation vs. BMS - How is bombing special coordinates done IRL?

[bachmama]

Hi pplz,

i saw a documentary on youtube about an F-16 Pilot who had to suddenly support ground troops in Iraq or Afghanistan a couple of days ago. They were under heavy fire and the Pilot could hear the gun shooting over the radio. He was given the info that if he doesn´t drop a bomb immediatly, these soldiers will die. He hardly was able to hear the coordinates and dropped the bombs... exactly into target.

I thought about how this is being done in BMS/IRL. First of all, what kind of coordinates are being broadcasted over radio? LAT/LNG? What Mode in DED would be used? And will that Pilot fly a CCRP Run just relying on those coordinates?

Or can a target be lasered like you see in movies and how which System in an F-16 would use this bombing mode?

And special question...how do the ground troops know a Coordinate let´s say 1 mile in a certain direction? Electronics or just a map?

Any Infos are welcome, thanx

[Red Dog]

the coordinates used in this case (in BMS) are latitudes and longitudes
irl, same but probably coded

once you have the coordinates, you go STPT page or DEST page, input the coordinates to any steerpoint (1-24). I use a non INS stpt (for instance if your flightplan has 11 stpt, i use STPT12, but you can also "move" the coordinates of your INS target steerpoint.

once you have the coordinates in your system, follow the hud cues to it. switch CCRP, strike with dumb bombs
if you want to engage LGBs, lock target with FCR (defaults to selected STPT) switch TGP , aquire the target, switch laser ON, strike

All this is CAS. Close air support

Nowadays with JTAC it's even more seamless
JTAC calls for help
tactical net sends fighter
fighter contact JTAC and give them the fighter checkin (what who, what weapons available, direction approaching)
JTAC gives sitrep (where are the tic (troops in Contact) where are the bad guys, friendly troops in vincinity
Once both are confident the situation is sorted, the JTAC will choose the weapon and the type of striker control (type 1-2-3)
striker attacks; once Jtac is confident the striker are on a good run in, clears them hot (type2 control) and ... boom

unfortunately, it's not possible to do in BMS unless you have a human JTAC, which is not so easy to do

[Focaldesign]

Coordinates are possible. Then mot likely JDAM of LJDAM would be used.
However, given the fact that troops also move, relying on earlier coordinates might not be the best idea regarding actually hitting the target nor regarding collateral damage. So laser guided (either LGB or LJDAM, which is GPS guided JDAM with Laser seeker head also) is most likely to be used.
As Red Dog says, for laser guided bombs, they use the TGP, target is either painted by TGP of the aircraft or by a laser of the ground troops with same laser code.
LGB with TGP is possible in BMS. Read the manual (made by Red Dog by the way). It's explained in there if I'm not mistaken.

[bachmama]

Thanx guys, very interresting how this is handled. Dropping a bomb into nothing but coordinates with surrounding blue forces would scare the hell out of me. Will have to read more about JTAC. Didn´t hear that before. When a Pilot gets those Infos over Radio i assume it is written down first before entered in the DED. I will try that in BMS, taking random coordinates from Recon and then doing a CCRP Blind / night run and see how effective I really was...

I always wondered in any movies, from Vietnam to the latest how this coordinate system works, coded or not. The artillery also has be very precise in doing their maths.

[BobSlob]

Thanx guys, very interresting how this is handled. Dropping a bomb into nothing but coordinates with surrounding blue forces would scare the hell out of me. Will have to read more about JTAC. Didn´t hear that before. When a Pilot gets those Infos over Radio i assume it is written down first before entered in the DED. I will try that in BMS, taking random coordinates from Recon and then doing a CCRP Blind / night run and see how effective I really was...

I always wondered in any movies, from Vietnam to the latest how this coordinate system works, coded or not. The artillery also has be very precise in doing their maths.

It's a highly co-ordinated "dance" per-se. JTAC will take control of the aircraft, establish comms, pass info via 9-Line brief, re-back of said brief, input the targetting info (if required) and away she goes. It happens fast, but we're not talking 10 seconds either.

The JTAC will request the weapon used, and as others have mentioned, could be Laser-Guided, GPS, Gun, Maverick or even "Dumb-Bombs". The guys on the ground make the call.

[Red Dog]

Some great books about cas in afghanistan form the raf/BN point of view:
Apache and Hellfire
or Joint force harriers, i'm currently re reading this one, lots of JTAC actions in there

[bachmama]

Some great books about cas in afghanistan form the raf/BN point of view:
Apache and Hellfire
or Joint force harriers, i'm currently re reading this one, lots of JTAC actions in there

Got a Link on Amazon?

[Red Dog]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Joint-Force-Harrier-Ade-Orchard/dp/0141035714
Apache and Hellfire from Ed MAcy are on the same page

[bachmama]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Joint-Force-Harrier-Ade-Orchard/dp/0141035714
Apache and Hellfire from Ed MAcy are on the same page

Thanx! BTW, that was my really good read in the last few weeks:

http://www.amazon.de/Viper-Pilot-Memoir-Hampton-Paperback/dp/B00LLPIJ7O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420658063&sr=8-1&keywords=Viper+Pilot%3A+A+Memoir+of+Air+Combat+by+Hampton%2C+Dan

[Rufus]

IRL, coordinates for artillery spotting, bombing, mortar fire, etc. or anything done on the ground are specified using grid reference location.  Realtime lat/long estimation is far too imprecise...particularly for CAS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_grid_reference_system

[Windmill31]

Grids used IRL today are MGRS in 99% of the cases.
Lat/Lon is becomming obsolete at a rapid pace due to its natural accuracy being 160m off the exact coordinate location. That is a circular error btw. So it can be off in both X an Y axis. Something to take into account is also the error in Z axis. In other words the target elevation amsl.
This also influences the inpact point for a JDAM.

There are several ways IRL to derive a coordinate that will be accurate up to a set tolorable error called TLE (target location error).
The system most used to generate a precise coordinate for JDAM deliveries would be an Advanved Targetting Pod (such as the sniper pod) or a ground based target marking and designation laser system like the LF-28A. The are other means but they are classified so I cannot elaborate on those. Bear in mind that JDAM delivery with high precision is only possible on stationary targets (buildings, bunkers, roads, and static vehicles under certain circumstances)
IRL either the pilot or the JTAC will provide the coordinates within a certain TLE category that will be manually punched into the Viper's system (as far a I know on a special subpage in the DED) and the grid will be locked into a specific JDAM. If needed a second JDAM on the same aircraft can be loaded with a different grid set for simultaneous delivery on different targets by one aircraft.

This can be achieved in BMS to either finding a target using the targetting pod, then using MARK (icp submode 7) in the "tgp-mode" and thereby creating a new STPT on which you could drop the JDAM in CCRP mode.
A second way to do it would be to enter a new steerpoint using submode 4 button on the ICP and entering a grid manually into the system. This can either be provided by an airborne station (a flight member in MP) or a JTAC (using the eye-fly option also in MP). Delivery would be the same though.

If you have any specific questions that I did not answer, semd me a PM and I will try to answer anything that is mot classified.

I am currently serving in the Royal Netherlands Army as a JTAC with four years of expierence inclusing a tour in Afghanistan

Cheers,
Blade

[Rufus]

...roger what Blade says.

And I'll add that for spotting fire calling in support, one of the key factors is to know your position to a great degree of accuracy and then call fire coords relative to that - which is an easy computation using grid.  In this manner you can at least be further assured of keeping the incoming off of yourself.  One more reason lat/long just doesn't hack it.

Does BMS support coords in UTM grid?  I haven't dug into BMS that deep yet... .  Would be neat if it did.

[bachmama]

Wonderful, that was exactly the Info that I was looking for! 

That mil grid system is really simple. You would need either lots of maps or good computers. Blade, in the field, I guess the person calling for fire support will have quite a few maps with him or is there any GPS System to tell them the exact location, because I think when supressed by enemy fire you don´t want to fold out big maps and search where you are?

I just found the lat/lng Input in the ICP, so I assume MGRS isn´t supported so far. Do we have any real Viper Drivers on this board?

[Red Dog]

the only way to do it in bms is lat & long
it's quite precise enough, unlike real world

the reason behing that is that all system in falcon relies on those coordinates and the lack of maps makes it simply impossible to use any other system. VFW can use a grid system, but in the end, they will rely on lat & long to pass coordinates because that's the only way the bms pilot has to set a steerpoint in the ded

[Rufus]

Most nav systems will in general take one input format and convert it to another, if you wish...even my little cheap Garmin handheld GPS will do that, I think.

Would be interesting at least to have BMS use/display faux "grid" to us though...even if it does have to use lat/long in it's internal calcs for it's own world. 

Future upgrade?.. ...