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Hello! by Zeight
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PSCockpit Set Up Issue by viper26
[September 17, 2022, 01:40:14 AM]


The Viper Simmer by Cupra
[September 16, 2022, 11:14:25 AM]

Author Topic: The Viper Simmer  (Read 9350 times)

Offline Marvin

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #105 on: September 08, 2022, 08:56:39 PM »
Do you want the debrief here, or in private?

Oh?  I wasn’t expecting you to do all the effort again?  Please do publicly.  I am not perfect and we all learn from my mistakes!
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Offline Cupra

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #106 on: September 14, 2022, 07:37:04 AM »
Yeah.. we all want see Marvin hanging here public.......  :fineprint:  :digger:  :harhar:

Offline Zeight

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #107 on: September 14, 2022, 09:47:52 AM »
 :yihaw:

Offline Foghorn

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #108 on: September 15, 2022, 02:18:50 AM »
My apologies up front.  I’m going to organize my thoughts into sections, because I fully intend to get my IP on.  Buckle up, sports fans, cuz here we go!!

Pre-Game
Technique vs. Procedure – Since you decided to explain stuff at the beginning of the video (bombing diagrams, box pattern, safe escape, safe separation, etc.… all very well, by the way), I’m going to indoctrinate you into an important bit of Instructorship… the anal-retentive level of attention given to calling out to your audience what is PROCEDURE (you WILL do this mandatory thing) and what is TECHNIQUE (here is HOW you can do a thing, -or-, here is MY WAY of doing a thing).

PROCEDURE is mandatory.  Checklist adherence, for example, is mandatory (procedure).

TECHNIQUE is optional… as long as whatever procedure the technique is used for is successfully accomplished.  You can use a completely different technique than I do, as long as both of our techniques gets the procedure done properly.

TECH-CEDURES… where an IP preaches a technique as if it is a procedure… or downgrades a student for using techniques other than that IP’s chosen ones.  This is a foul.  Don’t do it.

I will be demonstrating this throughout the remainder of this debrief.

Explanations
  • Your review of the Box Pattern at the range, Bombing Profiles, Safe Escape and Safe Separation Maneuvers was excellent.
  • Your description of the Roll In (level until 45° through the turn, then dive toward AOD) is TECHNIQUE.  There are other valid techniques.  I don’t stay level through the first half, but instead roll immediately to aim my lift vector at the AOD.
  • The forward stick pressure as the pipper approaches the target to slow pipper track and prevent a banana pass (aka the “Bunt”)… is TECHNIQUE.  I’m not a Bunter.  I’m a Trimmer.  This alternative TECHNIQUE is to trim nose down one click per 15° of dive angle at the roll in, and take it back out during the crosswind leg:
    • a 10° pass gets zero clicks, 20° gets one, 30° gets two, 45° gets three.
  • Calling “Out” as you come off target – In US military flying, this is not a standard, PROCEDURAL range call.  However, I cannot speak to the air forces of other nations, so take this comment with a grain of salt.
  • Pickle-and-Hold-then-DGFT-switch-Fires-a-Heater – THIS IS NOT TRUE.  It was fixed in the USAF F16 fleet in 1994.  The NATO F16 air forces followed soon after.
    • When a Master Mode is changed while the Pickle button, Trigger or Alternate Weapon Release button (left side, by the Master Arm switch) are depressed, the button is cancelled and reset, so that it has to be released and then depressed again before it sends another fire signal.

Ground Ops
  • Out of curiosity, why is your IFF in TIM(e) mode?  Nothing wrong with that; just unexpected for a BSA sortie.

Takeoff
  • Your RMFD is on the TEST page during takeoff.  Put something useful there, like HSD. (TECHNIQUE)
  • After gear up, you made a left turn out of traffic… and flew directly over your own airbase.  I would not do that with weapons aboard.  If something is going to fall off in flight, it is most likely in the first minute of being airborne.  Yes, I know you were carrying BDU-33’s, but we practice for live weapons.  Besides, I don’t know what the local procedures (PROCEDURES!!!) are for that airbase, but I’m fairly confident NO base commander approves of taking that risk.
    • I saw a MAU-12 pylon with a Mk82 fall off an A10 and crush a HMMV at Fort Sill, Oklahoma in 1995, killing the 4 soldiers inside.  I was flying AT-38B’s in IFF (Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals) at Sheppard AFB, TX, and had just checked off of Fort Sill’s range as the 2-ship of A-10’s was checking onto the range.  We passed left-to-left at about 2000’, and I saw the MAU and bomb fall off that dude’s jet.  Terrible day.

Enroute to Range
  • I know you added all the radio chatter (ATC, RCO, other traffic) into the video later, and it is fantastic.  So cool, so real.  However,…   ATC cleared you to FL220, and you read back FL200.  Neener neener.
  • Setting up for the range… the TECHNIQUE of using the OAs for your base position and AOD is freakin’ outstanding.  I’m so stealing that.
  • Putting your MRA into your MSL Floor setting is a good TECHNIQUE.  An alternative is to use the CARA ALOW.
  • G-Ex – In USAF flying, it is PROCEDURE to check each other’s G tolerance between G-Ex turns.  One TECHNIQUE would be:  “Vipers, Standby G-Ex, 90 right”… turn… “1’s good”, “2’s good”… “Vipers, Standby G-Ex, 180 left”… turn… “1’s good”, “2’s good”.
  • Spacer Pass – You just put #2 in trail a moment ago for the G-Ex, which is pretty close to the pattern spacing.  As TECHNIQUE, I would have just left him there after the G-Ex and drove over top the target “high-n-dry” to enter the range pattern.  I would have briefed him in the Flight Brief to adjust his spacing as we go, after the G-Ex.

Range Passes
  • 1st 10LALD – Good AFI record hit.  TGGE for invalid safe escape (more than 5° nose high).
  • 2nd 10LALD – Good AFI record hit.  Good TG record hit.
  • 1st 30DB – Good AFI record hit.  Good TG record hit.
  • 2nd 30DB – Good AFI record hit.  Good TG record hit.
  • 1st LAS – Good AFI record hit.  Good TG record hit.
  • 2nd LAS – Good AFI record hit.  Good TG record hit.
  • 3rd LAS – Non-record.  3rd attack, Same target, Same FAH.
  • 4th LAS – Non-record.  4th attack, Same target, Same FAH.

Range Ops
  • Low Angle Strafe – A lot to talk about here… almost all of it technique:
    • MSL Floor setting for LAS?  I’ve never seen that before.
    • Is there a 2000’ Foul Line plowed into the earth on this range complex?  Every range I’ve ever seen has a visible foul line as you aim down final at the rags.  I couldn’t make one out on this range.  So, the low angle strafe technique is to wait until you see the foul line passing under your heels in your peripheral vision before opening fire.  That puts you at about 2500’ range.  We train to ½ second bursts, thus averaging about 50 rounds per pass.  That ½ second burst is just less than 500’ of range used usually, so you are off the trigger just as you cross the foul line… minimizing range and maximizing accuracy.
    • It is often said, that if you aren’t fouling every once in awhile on the range during strafe, you aren’t trying hard enough.  (TECHNIQUE)
    • Strafing inside 2000’ range is a foul.  (PROCEDURE)
    • Minimum altitude for Low Angle Strafe is 75’ AGL.  (PROCEDURE)
    • A properly planned Low Angle Strafe pass will have you exactly at 75’ AGL at the 2000’ Foul Line.  Fookin’ scary low… Sport of Kings, baby!
  • Your joker fuel (“Bingo, Bingo”) sounded during your last few passes, which reminded me that you hadn’t done an Ops Check the entire sortie yet.  As a flight lead TECHNIQUE on the range, I combine an Ops Check at the Base call every other pass (so, the first pass of every new event, if we do only 2 passes per event).  In the flight briefing, I brief my wingmen to delay their response until the same spot, instead of replying immediately:
    • “Viper 1, Base, 4.2”
    • “Viper 2, Base, 4.1”
    • “Viper 3, Base, 4.1”
    • “Viper 4, Base, 4.0”
  • PROCEDURE – Coming off-range, you rejoin the flight, safe the weapons switches, and then check out with the RCO.  The radio exchange would sound like:
    • “Viper 1’s off wet, up for the rejoin, switches safe, Lead 2.9.”
    • “Viper 2’s off dry, switches safe, one aircraft in sight, 2.8.”
    • “Konia Range, Viper Flight is switches safe, checking off range to the south east.”
    • “Viper Flight, cleared off range, cleared off freq.  Good day.”
  • PROCEDURE – Coming off-range, once rejoined, you need to do a Battle Damage Check.  Here, in a video game… might be ‘roleplay only’ or ‘simulated-only’, but thought I’d mention it.
  • I’m curious… does this software give you scores for bombs and strafe on the range?  I would love to know where those bombs landed, and your actual strafe results.

Tanker Ops
  • Don’t be afraid to take an FCR lock during the tanker rejoin, for the extra data to control closure, until you are in tow.  (TECHNIQUE)  Once you are in tow (≤1 NM), then safe the weapons and standby the FCR (Noses Cold).  (PROCEDURE)
    • I saw your noses were cold during the rejoin and on the tanker.  My above comment was for the “don’t be afraid to use the radar during the rejoin”.
  • Pre-tanking Report – You didn’t report to the tanker that you were “In-Tow and Noses Cold” before moving to the Precontact Position and clearing your wingman to the Observation Position.  (PROCEDURE)
  • Contact Report – When you first plug in and check comms with the boomer, report your tail number and the requested offload.  (PROCEDURE)
    • “Hey, how are you guys today!  Viper 1, tail 818, 4000#.”
  • Holy Crap!  Is that a KC-135…. A?!?!!???  I haven’t seen one of those since the 90’s!  Tell those Falcon BMS nerds to update their models.  The USAF got rid of those dinky little engines back before Kurt Cobain tried to suck start a shotgun.
  • Okay.  I know you have not been properly trained in formation flying.  But you do not just slide on back to a fugly wedge off the boom:
    • After disconnecting, you drop one-airplane-height down off the boom;
    • You slide sideways along the wing just under-and-behind the engine nacelles to the wingtip;
    • You then rise up into 3’ fingertip on the tanker’s wing (aka, the Observation Position).  Just like a Crossunder.
    • This is the 2-ship PROCEDURE… if you two are the only ones on the tanker at the moment, and can just flow from the left Observation to the boom to the right Observation.
  • If you are a 2-ship, and there is another 2-ship on the other wing Observation, then you return to the side you started on:
    • If you are already on the boom, you slide to the side your wingman is on, past the engines, past HIS engine, and reposition to his outside wing, like a Crossunder;
    • Your wingman then drops down, slides across under-and-behind the tanker’s engines to the Precontact Position, then to Contact when cleared by the boomer;
    • You close the gap when he goes to Precontact;
    • He returns to your outside wing when he is done.  Then you can depart by easily peeling off on your side of the tanker, as the other flight starts the same procedures from their side.
  • If you are a 4-ship:
    • You go straight to the boom, and clear 2 to the left wing (obs pos);
    • You clear 3 & 4 to the right wing (obs pos);
    • You tank, then return to the left side outside of 2.  #3 goes to the boom next (alternating flow);
    • 3 tanks, then returns right to the outside of 4.  #2 goes to the boom next;
    • 2 tanks, return left to your outside wing in the left obs pos.  #4 goes to the boom;
    • 4 tanks, returns right, everyone’s done;
    • Depart the tanker by either climbing or descending away and reform the formation once safely clear.
  • Don’t forget to heat up the noses post-tank.  Weapons can stay safe if appropriate, but return the radar from standby.
  • Get this stuff down, and I’ll teach you Quick Flow procedures.

RTB
  • The radio traffic you added is fantastic!  Sounds so real.
  • However, the tower called the winds 300° at 20 knots gusting to 31 knots… a very significant UNDERSHOOTING crosswind for Runway 26 (yes, I’m aware it’s a fake radio call added afterwards, and won’t match the game).  Your DED was showing winds of 210° at a steady 11 knots… a mildly OVERSHOOTING crosswind for Runway 26.  Sure enough, you overshot the runway centerline.  *a bell dings*  Shame!  *ding*  Shame!   :bat:
  • Are you ever gonna land that thing?  Something wrong with the first 1500’ of runway you didn’t use, Lieutenant?  :biggrin:

Overall
I have good news, and bad news.  First, the good news:

A lot of this feedback is very, very nit-noidy shit.  Such is the life of a fighter pilot.  We measure with a micrometer, what we mark on the map with a fatty crayon, then cut with an axe… only to come back in the debrief to analyze it with an electron microscope.

Overall, the skill level displayed is outstanding.  I’ve addressed obvious gaps in your knowledge above, which is to be expected until you have had an opportunity to be educated in them.  I need to get these sims up and running and come teach you all the parts you can’t learn on your own.

The level of realism with the addition of the radio calls is fantastic, really.

The passes were clean, and you only threw one bomb out for TGGE, and it was the TMLT on the first one.  This is probably THE most often occurring TGGE in all of visual bombing… the TMLT on the first pass.

Now the bad news:

IRL, I would hook you on this ride.

You never did an Ops Check for you and your wingman.  Not one… assuming it wasn’t performed off-camera during one of the cuts.  You showed awareness of your own fuel state in general, but I never saw you perform the steps of an Ops Check, nor did I hear you check your wingman.

Checklist items are PROCEDURES, not suggestions.  Even if the rest of the sortie was pure gold (and it was), failing to accomplish any checklist item is an automatic Bust.

.

Have a great rest of your day.
FOGHORN

Offline Tulkas

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #109 on: September 15, 2022, 02:37:34 AM »
I think I speak in behalf of everybody in this forum, thank you very much for taking the time for such a debriefing! A luxury to have you here.

Offline jjbravo

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #110 on: September 15, 2022, 09:54:31 AM »
Awesome and useful feedback! Thanks for that.  :beer:

Offline Marvin

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #111 on: September 15, 2022, 10:13:41 AM »
Foghorn,

Once again I learn so much from your debriefs and a from ab ex-spec ops guy and 15 year Police member working our hood I have VERY thick skin.  I love criticism and I want the truth with no sugar coating so I learn.  And yes I have learned so much on this.  I need to read this a few times to really absorb the wealth of knowledge here.  But just a few comments for clarification.

This was video editing so there is a lot in 1.5 hour flight that you are not seeing as I do ops checks before and after the range service, but I like your idea on maintaining that integrity during the range as well so that will change.

The beginning was hard for me.  One I don’t have your expertise and knowledge and experience so all I am trying to do is provide what I have learned to help me perform better.  Most of the which is from you.  Then I have to look at the attention span on most YouTubers which is about 3 minutes.  It’s funny how my 3 minutes videos on YouTube get views more than my in-depth ones.  So on that note I tried to be as brief as possibly but give critical information.  I do like your technique vs procedure.  And will try and indicate those differences in future videos.

I know you said it’s geometry but I am getting a lot of info from my Greek sources and you guessed it that’s where my heart is.  So doing their 45 degree technique seem to be the only geometry that worked with this profiles they gave me.  So I should have clarified but my thinking is as my viewers will use those profiles and techniques.  But absolutely right clarifying that would have been more responsible.

I like that to appreciate the real comms.  It added to the Immersion and I was easy for the range but a nightmare for everything else.  The ATC just didn’t make sense cause I used comms from a HUD tape flying out of Monana (as far as I can tell) so I winds and runways and call signs made no sense and was very frustrating plotting that in and cutting out the computer AI comms.  So it was meant for entertainment purposes but failed in my opinion.

Currently in BMS heaters will fire if you switch to dogfight (this was described in Vipers in the Storm) but I had no idea that was fixed in the 90s so I will report this to this to the Devs.

There is more going on it’s th tanker comms but I had limited radio traffic so I cut out all the computer comms for join up, pre-contact position etc.

Once again thanks for th compliments this only makes me better.
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Offline raptor

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #112 on: September 15, 2022, 10:59:35 AM »

Thank you for your feedback, this is gold.  :thumbsup:

Offline Marvin

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #113 on: September 15, 2022, 11:23:46 AM »
Foghorn,

Also, yes in BMS I can check my debrief and it will record hits.  For some reason it doesn't work well with BDUs, but it does work well with strafing.
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Offline Foghorn

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #114 on: September 15, 2022, 12:06:21 PM »
Okay cool.  If the Ops Checks just didn't make the cut in the video, I take back the spanking.  Regs say, "... at least every 20 minutes...", so the techniques I offered are WAY more often than that, which is overkill... but my name is Foghorn.  There is no such thing as 'overkill';  there is only 'open fire' and ' reload'.

Your explanations were bordering on perfect... succinct and factual.  Just add "My technique is.." or "One technique is..." in the spots where you are now describing your technique for something.  That's all.  You do not need to give every possible technique in existence; just call out that what you are now explaining is a technique and not a procedure.  The audience is savvy enough to infer that there must be other, valid techniques in existence, and its up to them to suss them out if they so desire.

A word about your YT viewership.  Are trying to become a YouTuber?  Are you trying to make YouTube videos a career and support yourself with a rapidly growing channel?

God, I hope not.  Yes, your 3-minute videos will get more viewers.  BUT, THEY ARE NOT YOUR AUDIENCE.  Those 3-minute viewers are the bunny-hopping, Call-of-Duty-twitching, short-attention-span-theater crowd that snort Tide Pods and drool.  FUCK 'EM.  Your audience are those hardcore simmers who build badass cockpits, and THOSE maniacs watch your videos all the way through... even if it's only a few tens or a couple hundred viewers.  Time to make a decision on what's your focus and who you are trying to reach.

Jeez, am I always this preachy?  I should shut up.

FOGHORN

Offline tiger-31

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #115 on: September 15, 2022, 12:56:50 PM »
Reading and seeing this makes me realize the level that can be reached by private simbuilders/simflyers. It is amazing how far we have come technically in private simbuilding and it is awesome that here on VP we can have a professional like @Foghorn  help us understand techniques and procedures. Also a big congrats to @Marvin for succeeding to not only get a dreamsim, but also achieving the level he has in operating it.

Offline Marvin

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #116 on: September 15, 2022, 01:26:46 PM »
Okay cool.  If the Ops Checks just didn't make the cut in the video, I take back the spanking.  Regs say, "... at least every 20 minutes...", so the techniques I offered are WAY more often than that, which is overkill... but my name is Foghorn.  There is no such thing as 'overkill';  there is only 'open fire' and ' reload'.

Your explanations were bordering on perfect... succinct and factual.  Just add "My technique is.." or "One technique is..." in the spots where you are now describing your technique for something.  That's all.  You do not need to give every possible technique in existence; just call out that what you are now explaining is a technique and not a procedure.  The audience is savvy enough to infer that there must be other, valid techniques in existence, and its up to them to suss them out if they so desire.

A word about your YT viewership.  Are trying to become a YouTuber?  Are you trying to make YouTube videos a career and support yourself with a rapidly growing channel?

God, I hope not.  Yes, your 3-minute videos will get more viewers.  BUT, THEY ARE NOT YOUR AUDIENCE.  Those 3-minute viewers are the bunny-hopping, Call-of-Duty-twitching, short-attention-span-theater crowd that snort Tide Pods and drool.  FUCK 'EM.  Your audience are those hardcore simmers who build badass cockpits, and THOSE maniacs watch your videos all the way through... even if it's only a few tens or a couple hundred viewers.  Time to make a decision on what's your focus and who you are trying to reach.

Jeez, am I always this preachy?  I should shut up.


Ha ha ha God no..  I do You Tube for fun and will not monetize at all.  I'm against it really..  Long story..    But I do feel the responsibility to produce videos for my subscribers, but you make a good valid point.  I should worry about quality viewers over quantity.  The loyal and interested ones will take the time to watch the whole video and learn from it anyway.
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Offline Marvin

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #117 on: September 15, 2022, 01:28:40 PM »
Reading and seeing this makes me realize the level that can be reached by private simbuilders/simflyers. It is amazing how far we have come technically in private simbuilding and it is awesome that here on VP we can have a professional like @Foghorn  help us understand techniques and procedures. Also a big congrats to @Marvin for succeeding to not only get a dreamsim, but also achieving the level he has in operating it.

I don't think ENOUGH can be said about Foghorn's contribution to this community.    And it is a major contribution just by taking the time to help us all achieve the level of realism we are after.  And I am not blowing smoke up your ass dude, you feedback is SO valuable to us all. 
" Where's the KABOOM! "

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Offline Korbi

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #118 on: September 15, 2022, 04:40:02 PM »
You have to credit Jody with a bit of extra respect for hitting the turns in the pattern so good. In these 3 projector setups we are using it is not easy to judge the right turn in point, as BMS does screw up the image due to its FOV limitiations. So looking to the left 90° isn't actually 90° left in the virtual world as well, making it incredible hard to get the turn in right! Kudos dude!
Best regards

Korbi
VJS 161 "Mad Bulls"

Offline Marvin

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Re: The Viper Simmer
« Reply #119 on: September 15, 2022, 04:58:40 PM »
You have to credit Jody with a bit of extra respect for hitting the turns in the pattern so good. In these 3 projector setups we are using it is not easy to judge the right turn in point, as BMS does screw up the image due to its FOV limitiations. So looking to the left 90° isn't actually 90° left in the virtual world as well, making it incredible hard to get the turn in right! Kudos dude!

Ain’t that the truth.  I’m certain I fly off my HSI more than any real Viper pilot.  Lol. It is the only way we can time these turns Korbi.  And as you can hear me in the video “damn my heading is off” I don’t have it perfected.

Which brings me to a question @Foghorn are headings scored at all?  Or just a reference the range controller needs to know to score/track your misses?  From the HUD tapes I have seen it sounds like he gives a clock position and maybe distance from target.  Something like 9 at 15 is call I heard in one tape.

Jody
" Where's the KABOOM! "

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