collapse

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 97
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Recent Topics/Posts

DCStoF4 (Standalone version) by SharkNoir
[March 17, 2024, 03:19:25 PM]

Author Topic: Real NVGs with BMS  (Read 2509 times)

Offline Marvin

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
  • Posts: 2373
  • Country: ca
  • Back at again after 10 years!
  • VP Awards Veteran Award: Awarded after 5 years of community service 2000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 2000 posts Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Agoge Tactical Regimen
    • Awards
Real NVGs with BMS
« on: December 12, 2022, 10:15:53 AM »
I have to admit I never thought you could use real night vision with a computer simulator.  But I guess the projection screens emit very little light so you can use it.  I don’t know why you would as you are not really amplifying the outside world but it does look pretty cool.

Now bare in mind I am holding my NVG with one hand and my iPhone against the focus lens so it does look much better when it’s on your face but if you wanted to I guess you could somewhat pull it off.  What really surprised me is how crisp the HUD symbology was considering most of us projection screens guy don’t get a good HUD image considering we have to scale it down.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOpkVPz6oLw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOpkVPz6oLw</a>
" Where's the KABOOM! "

Windows 8.1 64 bit, Intel Core i7 - 5820K CPU (3.30GHz 6-cores, 15MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.8 GHz w/ Turbo Boost), 32.0 GB Quad Channel DDR4 at 2133MHz, 128GB SSD 6Gb/s Main + 2TB 72

Offline Mustang 1-1

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2022
  • Location: Oklahoma
  • Posts: 55
  • Country: us
  • VR-Pilot
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2022, 10:30:14 AM »
I have been thinking about this, but nvg’s are super expensive. I would use them not just in the pit, they would be really cool and useful. Just that they cost THOUSANDS of dollars!!

Offline Marvin

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
  • Posts: 2373
  • Country: ca
  • Back at again after 10 years!
  • VP Awards Veteran Award: Awarded after 5 years of community service 2000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 2000 posts Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Agoge Tactical Regimen
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2022, 10:34:56 AM »
I have been thinking about this, but nvg’s are super expensive. I would use them not just in the pit, they would be really cool and useful. Just that they cost THOUSANDS of dollars!!

Yeah.  Mine cost $12,000.  But is use them on my real job and they were never purchased for the sim.  I think you would be crazy to invest that money just to fly the sim. Lol
" Where's the KABOOM! "

Windows 8.1 64 bit, Intel Core i7 - 5820K CPU (3.30GHz 6-cores, 15MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.8 GHz w/ Turbo Boost), 32.0 GB Quad Channel DDR4 at 2133MHz, 128GB SSD 6Gb/s Main + 2TB 72

Offline tiger-31

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Location:
  • Posts: 2518
  • Country: be
  • VP Awards 2000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 2000 posts Most Time Online Award: Awarded to those 30 members with most time on the forum Veteran Award: Awarded after 5 years of community service Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2022, 11:17:58 AM »
Interesting experiment @Marvin . I also wondered what it would look like with a real NVIS set.

Not that I have one. I just have a replica for fun...  :whistle:
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 01:23:44 PM by tiger-31 »

Offline Marvin

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
  • Posts: 2373
  • Country: ca
  • Back at again after 10 years!
  • VP Awards Veteran Award: Awarded after 5 years of community service 2000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 2000 posts Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Agoge Tactical Regimen
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2022, 11:43:44 AM »
I guess if you really want to simulate it you COULD.  The problem is you don’t really see the outside world any better it’s just green.  Lol
" Where's the KABOOM! "

Windows 8.1 64 bit, Intel Core i7 - 5820K CPU (3.30GHz 6-cores, 15MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.8 GHz w/ Turbo Boost), 32.0 GB Quad Channel DDR4 at 2133MHz, 128GB SSD 6Gb/s Main + 2TB 72

Offline Rufus

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Location: California
  • Posts: 5999
  • Country: us
  • VP Awards Old Geezer Award: Awarded after 10 years of community service Most Time Online Award: Awarded to those 30 members with most time on the forum 3000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 3000 posts Silver Cup Award: Awarded to someone for a special achievement Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2022, 02:43:16 PM »
One of the coolest NVG demos I ever participated in was the projection of a night OTW display from a sim on a wall, in the dark - we all got wear a pilot's helmet with a set of ANVIS-9 goggles to view the demo.

Just to check things, I spent some time looking around/under my goggles during the demo -  the room and projection on the wall were near to black, but through the goggles I could see cultural features, terrain, etc.  Was a REALLY great demo.

I think the major hurdle is getting your projectors turned down low enough to not bloom the goggles and simulate the night environment.  If there is too much light, you can risk damaging your goggles, and OTOH there has to be some ambient light for the goggles to work.  When done properly it's well worth the effort.
- Rufus

Offline Mustang 1-1

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2022
  • Location: Oklahoma
  • Posts: 55
  • Country: us
  • VR-Pilot
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2022, 03:18:34 PM »
Yeah, you could have a micro switch so when you click the goggles down onto your eyes it triggers something that turn the screen down.

Offline Marvin

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
  • Posts: 2373
  • Country: ca
  • Back at again after 10 years!
  • VP Awards Veteran Award: Awarded after 5 years of community service 2000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 2000 posts Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Agoge Tactical Regimen
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2022, 03:55:10 PM »
That’s not entirely true.  It would take direct sunlight to blow a tube.  And these days all tubes come witb auto-gating or Auto Brightness Shut-off (ABS).  So not that I would recommend it but any milspec tube will just shut off.  So that being said no artificial lighting will hurt nightvision nor trigger the auto-gating or ABS.  As a matter of fact in my 20 years working with might vision just our flash bangs are bright enough to trigger the auto-gating.

As for the projection.  They actually work very well as you can see in the video.  Comparing to real NVG videos in flight I have seen they are very similar.  The only issue is you are not gaining anything.  I think I am able to amplify the scenery by about 1%.  Lol.  So other than simulating flying looking through a tube and navigating the cockpit by looking under the NVGs there would be no valuable point.


One of the coolest NVG demos I ever participated in was the projection of a night OTW display from a sim on a wall, in the dark - we all got wear a pilot's helmet with a set of ANVIS-9 goggles to view the demo.

Just to check things, I spent some time looking around/under my goggles during the demo -  the room and projection on the wall were near to black, but through the goggles I could see cultural features, terrain, etc.  Was a REALLY great demo.

I think the major hurdle is getting your projectors turned down low enough to not bloom the goggles and simulate the night environment.  If there is too much light, you can risk damaging your goggles, and OTOH there has to be some ambient light for the goggles to work.  When done properly it's well worth the effort.
" Where's the KABOOM! "

Windows 8.1 64 bit, Intel Core i7 - 5820K CPU (3.30GHz 6-cores, 15MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.8 GHz w/ Turbo Boost), 32.0 GB Quad Channel DDR4 at 2133MHz, 128GB SSD 6Gb/s Main + 2TB 72

Offline Rufus

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Location: California
  • Posts: 5999
  • Country: us
  • VP Awards Old Geezer Award: Awarded after 10 years of community service Most Time Online Award: Awarded to those 30 members with most time on the forum 3000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 3000 posts Silver Cup Award: Awarded to someone for a special achievement Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2022, 08:20:56 PM »
Actually, we had a Test Pilot have his NVGs bloom severely when I conducted my first MAV-E launch from a Harrier at night...totally greened-out when the missile came off (which none of us expected - not even my pilot), and all he could do was go for sky until he could see again...

I guess I'll add that it also depends on just which goggles you are using - I've played around with quite a few types since 1986, from ANVIS-1-9s, GEC Cats Eyes (my fav, actually), QuadEyes...and I've seen them do all sorts of things.

And one of the big issues I have with how NVGs are simulated in BMS is the "tube" effect.  I found I have far more peripheral vision than BMS portrays, and that I also spend quite a bit of time looking around/beneath the goggles than one might think - but my night vision has also been superior to my day vision, until my current age. 

One of the reasons I like Cats Eyes (even after all this time) is because they are really a HUD in front of each eye - no tubes - and not only does that give you more periphery, they also have/had the clearest, most non-fizzy picture I've seen.

https://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/collection/goggles-head-mounted-display-nvg-hmd/cats-eyes

...heh - reminds me, I have a Cats Eyes patch in my collection!  This page says they went into production "circa 1990", but I was playing with them well before that - mid 80s.
- Rufus

Offline Marvin

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
  • Posts: 2373
  • Country: ca
  • Back at again after 10 years!
  • VP Awards Veteran Award: Awarded after 5 years of community service 2000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 2000 posts Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Agoge Tactical Regimen
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2022, 09:50:38 PM »
Hmmm I would say you guys were using garbage tubes..  I've been dealing with NODs for the past 20 years and never seen that.  Light blooming is normal for any NOD as that is what it does it amplifies light and when it's bright it will bloom brighter.  But it wouldn't do anything that would hinder the vision for any longer than a second.   That's not how they work.  So I think you are mistaken.

Regardless of single or dual tube and what brand you are only going to get a 40o FOV unless you are using the newer panoramic stuff.  And then you mount that to your helmet where most pilots are wearing them further away from the face to see their cockpit better underneath the NOD, and now you are looking through a tube.  So I would say BMS gives you too much FOV actually..  And then there is the issue with the cockpit being in focus..  It's just done completely wrong..

Actually, we had a Test Pilot have his NVGs bloom severely when I conducted my first MAV-E launch from a Harrier at night...totally greened-out when the missile came off (which none of us expected - not even my pilot), and all he could do was go for sky until he could see again...

I guess I'll add that it also depends on just which goggles you are using - I've played around with quite a few types since 1986, from ANVIS-1-9s, GEC Cats Eyes (my fav, actually), QuadEyes...and I've seen them do all sorts of things.

And one of the big issues I have with how NVGs are simulated in BMS is the "tube" effect.  I found I have far more peripheral vision than BMS portrays, and that I also spend quite a bit of time looking around/beneath the goggles than one might think - but my night vision has also been superior to my day vision, until my current age. 

One of the reasons I like Cats Eyes (even after all this time) is because they are really a HUD in front of each eye - no tubes - and not only does that give you more periphery, they also have/had the clearest, most non-fizzy picture I've seen.

https://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/collection/goggles-head-mounted-display-nvg-hmd/cats-eyes

...heh - reminds me, I have a Cats Eyes patch in my collection!  This page says they went into production "circa 1990", but I was playing with them well before that - mid 80s.
" Where's the KABOOM! "

Windows 8.1 64 bit, Intel Core i7 - 5820K CPU (3.30GHz 6-cores, 15MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.8 GHz w/ Turbo Boost), 32.0 GB Quad Channel DDR4 at 2133MHz, 128GB SSD 6Gb/s Main + 2TB 72

Offline Rufus

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Location: California
  • Posts: 5999
  • Country: us
  • VP Awards Old Geezer Award: Awarded after 10 years of community service Most Time Online Award: Awarded to those 30 members with most time on the forum 3000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 3000 posts Silver Cup Award: Awarded to someone for a special achievement Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2022, 10:26:01 PM »
You don't look "through the tubes" with Cats Eyes - the tubes are light collectors which project an image into a combiner, and you look through the combiner in front of each of your eyes.  The combiners on the ones I got to play with were only about a 1/2 to 3/4 inch deep, so it was very easy to look around or underneath them. 

But I don't think Cats Eyes are out there any longer, and were only in use by Harrier and helo pilots - USMC mainly...and the RAF?  This is a pretty good face pic with Cats Eyes, so you can see how they are constructed:

https://cdn.rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/img/catalog/ZZ_1293126549_044%20Cats%20Eyes%20Front%20View%20WM.jpg?w=150&fit=max

OTOH, MOST of the gear I've worked with has been pre-production/developmental...as a tester I generally get to work with things first, before they get formally deployed...yes - the first Cats Eyes were really sensitive.


All of the USMC and USN guys I worked with at the time always said they looked under their goggles to look inside the cockpit...but that was a long time ago, and I don't do much NVG stuff anymore.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 10:37:41 PM by Rufus »
- Rufus

Offline Marvin

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
  • Posts: 2373
  • Country: ca
  • Back at again after 10 years!
  • VP Awards Veteran Award: Awarded after 5 years of community service 2000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 2000 posts Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Agoge Tactical Regimen
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2022, 09:25:47 AM »
Yeah I wasn't talking about the Cat eyes.  I'm talking about ordinary NODs.  They have to look under them as you can only focus your optic to one point.  So you would either have to focus at your cockpit or the outside world to infinity.  You can't do both, and the obvious answer would be to focus to infinity so you can see outside so you have to look under your nods to navigate the cockpit.  lol

You don't look "through the tubes" with Cats Eyes - the tubes are light collectors which project an image into a combiner, and you look through the combiner in front of each of your eyes.  The combiners on the ones I got to play with were only about a 1/2 to 3/4 inch deep, so it was very easy to look around or underneath them. 

But I don't think Cats Eyes are out there any longer, and were only in use by Harrier and helo pilots - USMC mainly...and the RAF?  This is a pretty good face pic with Cats Eyes, so you can see how they are constructed:

https://cdn.rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/img/catalog/ZZ_1293126549_044%20Cats%20Eyes%20Front%20View%20WM.jpg?w=150&fit=max

OTOH, MOST of the gear I've worked with has been pre-production/developmental...as a tester I generally get to work with things first, before they get formally deployed...yes - the first Cats Eyes were really sensitive.


All of the USMC and USN guys I worked with at the time always said they looked under their goggles to look inside the cockpit...but that was a long time ago, and I don't do much NVG stuff anymore.
" Where's the KABOOM! "

Windows 8.1 64 bit, Intel Core i7 - 5820K CPU (3.30GHz 6-cores, 15MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.8 GHz w/ Turbo Boost), 32.0 GB Quad Channel DDR4 at 2133MHz, 128GB SSD 6Gb/s Main + 2TB 72

Offline Rufus

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Location: California
  • Posts: 5999
  • Country: us
  • VP Awards Old Geezer Award: Awarded after 10 years of community service Most Time Online Award: Awarded to those 30 members with most time on the forum 3000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 3000 posts Silver Cup Award: Awarded to someone for a special achievement Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2022, 06:04:13 PM »
Yeah, I know...but that's another cool thing about Cats Eyes (as I've said - "my fav") - you don't have to "focus" them as much as you have to "align" them.

...but I've also spent time standing in front of a Hoffman Box setting up ANVIS types too.  I've had about everything on my head from NVD to JHMCS over the years...which brings me to the "fearsome" QuadEye - which is an NVD that also has JHMCS built into it:

« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 06:10:44 PM by Rufus »
- Rufus

Offline Marvin

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
  • Posts: 2373
  • Country: ca
  • Back at again after 10 years!
  • VP Awards Veteran Award: Awarded after 5 years of community service 2000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 2000 posts Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Agoge Tactical Regimen
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2022, 04:12:57 AM »
If I could only drink a cup of your piss I would be that much better!   :harhar:

Yeah, I know...but that's another cool thing about Cats Eyes (as I've said - "my fav") - you don't have to "focus" them as much as you have to "align" them.

...but I've also spent time standing in front of a Hoffman Box setting up ANVIS types too.  I've had about everything on my head from NVD to JHMCS over the years...which brings me to the "fearsome" QuadEye - which is an NVD that also has JHMCS built into it:
" Where's the KABOOM! "

Windows 8.1 64 bit, Intel Core i7 - 5820K CPU (3.30GHz 6-cores, 15MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.8 GHz w/ Turbo Boost), 32.0 GB Quad Channel DDR4 at 2133MHz, 128GB SSD 6Gb/s Main + 2TB 72

Offline Rufus

  • General
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Location: California
  • Posts: 5999
  • Country: us
  • VP Awards Old Geezer Award: Awarded after 10 years of community service Most Time Online Award: Awarded to those 30 members with most time on the forum 3000+ posts Award: Awarded for achieving over 3000 posts Silver Cup Award: Awarded to someone for a special achievement Top Poster Award: for those 30 members with most posts
    • Awards
Re: Real NVGs with BMS
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2022, 08:20:24 PM »
...I doubt it... :reading: .
- Rufus

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal