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Author Topic: Symulate Cockpit Plans  (Read 19053 times)

Offline Symulate

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Symulate Cockpit Plans
« on: August 18, 2015, 02:50:43 PM »
Hello all,

In the next few days I aim to release the first two modules of the cockpit plans.  These will be the centre pedestal and the LHS and RHS instrument panels.  These have been ready for a while but I have been in discussion with the admins as to the best way to make these available.

I have made it clear to a number of people who have contacted me along the way that the work I have been doing will take the form of two different threads.  The first will be a solid model, freely available to anyone that I will keep up to date and which will act as a reference to anyone who wants to construct using their own methodology.  This is currently available in the downloads section.  The second thread will be based on this initial solid model but will be a detailed set of plans/stencils that, in theory, will allow the user to stick the stencils onto board material (MDF or PLY) and then trim and fix together to create an accurate platform.  This second thread will be produced with the aim that only simple 2D cuts are required thus making it easy to manufacture at home with limited tools but equally suitable for CNC machining if required.  As this second thread is a considerable undertaking that as well as time involves a lot of my own design IP, it was always intended for the full plans to be a commercial offering.

A very small minority of people, who when they found out that there would be a commercial aspect to this, didn't want to provide information that I had requested.  I fully respect them for this.  Equally, I have had numerous people who have asked for the plans on a regular basis, offering to pay each time, so I can also see that there is an appetite for what I am doing even if there may be a cost associated with this.   Finally, the admins themselves, from our previous discussion have also wrestled with both sides of this venture.  Again, I fully respect that.

Before I make the plans available I wanted to make a number of things clear.  To get things this far the only dimensional help I have received, other than "freeware" sources, on this forum and elsewhere, has been from Mike (Ka-Bar03) in the form of his viperpanels offering.  This source alone has allowed me to make the full solid model and consequent platform plans.  I made it clear from the start to Mike that I planned this to be a commercial venture and he was fully supportive of this.  Hopefully he will offer his thoughts in due course here for reference.  With this in mind I feel justified in offering these plans on a commercial basis but am happy to have feedback from the wider community in the meantime.

Secondly I value a frank discussion on pricing.  I am hoping to have two tiers of plans available.  The first is a .pdf set with the aim being that the user can print and fix to board and cut accordingly.  The second is a .dxf set which could be CNC'd as required.  As the second tier leaves me more open to abuse it would be priced slightly higher.  In total I envisage there being four modules available.

(1)  Centre Pedestal and HUD Box
(2)  LHS / RHS Instrument Panels and Floor
(3)  LHS Console
(4)  RHS Console

From a pricing point of view I am currently consider £25 per module for the .pdf plan set and £35 per module for .dxf set.  I consider this to be reasonable but again value your feedback.

Finally I would add that I am not here to make a quick buck and disappear.  I will stand by the plans and if there are glaring issues make every effort to fix them accordingly.  I will also continue to support the solid model in the downloads section as well.  I believe this model alone, in conjunction with the build manuals which I have also made freely available, is already enough that the average user could construct a platform without the need to purchase anything.  As such I hope people will realise that I am trying to service both ends of the community.

I hope people will see that I have tried to be as up front and honest about this venture from the beginning, with Mike, the Admins, and now the wider community.  With this in mind I will hold back from releasing anything further until I hear what people have to say.

Thanks,
Sy


Offline tiger-31

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2015, 03:20:55 PM »
@Symulate

For many years people have been begging, nagging, cursing.... to be able to buy the plans that are now no longer available. These plans mind you were not cheap.

I never bought these plans so I can not judge price quality.

Then efforts were made to make "community plans" freely available to all members. Unfortunately that project, although well intended did not really fly, and seemed to take forever.

You spend a lot of time making your different versions of the plans (admittedly with some help of others), and succeeded where others could not manage, and finished the plans. Reading the prices you are suggesting for the plans I do not feel these are unreasonable. Especially not compared to what I "heard" the older plans costed. Furthermore you are also offering a solid model set that is free, but that with some effort can be adapted.

So basically people have a choice. A ready made plans set, at a modest cost, or a free set requiring some own work. Who can complain about this?

Of course this is just my opinion.   




 

Offline CobaltUK

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2015, 04:08:11 PM »
Totally agree with Tiger-31. As for the 2Tier pricing well I wonder if the higher price (that could yet be higher ultimately after full costings) might perhaps include both versions ? rather like some high end audio media include an mp3  or some such as part of the deal. If not then perhaps a discount for both. Just a thought.

Offline Symulate

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2015, 04:11:31 PM »
Hey,

Tier2 would include both .dxf and .pdf formats.

Thanks,
Sy

Offline henkie

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 04:20:16 PM »
Hi @Symulate

I am building my pit completely with my own ideas ... if you were around one year earlier, I would followed your plans, no doubt about that  :thumbsup:
So I am just a reader at the side line, but let me tell you that your pricing is VERY competitive. From what I understand, the no longer available plans were 3x ... 4x your asking figures!  I cannot say what the level of completeness was, nor its quality. Older members may have a better formed opinion about that.

It is a pity that the old plans are no longer available, that would have been good for continuity. You are offering that continuity and that alone is already worth something  :clap:

Maybe I could offer some electronic designs for a few $$ (or ££), but the amount of work that goes with the support is (to me) not worth all the extra work. So, I make my designs available, and write a manual to get guys started. Yes, I will do support, but as it is free and the designs are free, I have less feelings about being obliged to an immediate response  :whistle:

I still feel strongly that this community is full of people that want to do "good things". And most of them earn a lot of karma for the "next life" whereever that might be. Some guys have skills that are no good for pit building, but probably very good for something else. Together we can make the "pit building dream" real for all active VP builders.

I feel there is much more to say, but it basically comes down to  :clap: @Symulate
 :vprules:
- Henk

Offline avn-tech

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 11:34:52 PM »
The main reason I decided to build an F-16 cockpit, was because of the support I found on this site. I think Rufus and I were the last builders to get Jason's planes.

I have seen builders come and go, after being frustrated at not being able to get plans. Having written several aircraft manuals, I think I have a good understanding of the work involved in making the plans. Following the group, it appears that only one or two people have been involved the community plans project and it has taken what seems like a long time.

I fully support charging for these plans, as a way to recoup the time and effort spent in there design. I doubt that anyone is going to get rich and retire from products they build for this community (look at dunk and what he has done). If Jason were making a living selling the plans, he would still be here and selling them. But the time he spent versus the pay was not worth the effort to him.

I was more then willing to pay Jason for his plans (yes, I saved my money to buy them), but the fact that they were available was worth what I paid. I have also been glade to pay dunk for his parts when I have the money to buy parts. I am sure that there others out there who will be raiding my piggy bank in the future as I work to complete my project.

Just my $0.02 worth.

I would also like to thank those who have organized the group meetings over the last couple of years. While unable to attend, I think they are worthwhile events for builders and hope to attend one in the future (if they continue to be offered).

Thank you
Avn-Tech

Offline Pekay

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2015, 11:46:23 PM »
As said by myself and by others over this journey, we can't thank you enough. Like many others in this wonderful viper community who have the desire to build yet lack the skills (or software) to produce the artwork you have done, gives us a fighting chance to pursue a dream. Your prices are I think, dare I say, are too low. With all that time at the computer and doing the research, I myself would be understanding and willing to pay for the quality work you have shown us. Don't undersell yourself. After seeing some of the prices I have seen on Ebay...well I rant too much. Again thank you for the work you have done and am looking forward to your stencils, what ever price you decide

 I would also like to take the time to commend all the pit builders who built a pit without the aid of stencils and plans and I certainly don't want to belittle their efforts. Your experiences are a great resource for all us newbies. The combination of so many of the established (better word than old-timers :whistle:) pit builders coupled with the influx of new blood (stencils and drawings) have given us newbies a site full of great information and great friends. It can be easily said there is no other forum like Viperpit(s)!  :vprules:

Awaiting to soar the glory of the skies...

Pekay
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 12:03:24 PM by Pekay »

Offline Symulate

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2015, 05:48:55 AM »
Hello all,

Thanks for all the feedback thus far.  I'll leave this open for the rest of the weekend for any more comments and concerns and then make a final decision on how to proceed on Monday.

I appreciate everyone's honesty.

Regards,
Sy

Offline Symulate

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2015, 07:56:13 AM »
Hello all,

Thanks for everyone's feedback.  Having not heard had any negative comments regarding a commercial release I plan to double check everything and release the first two modules over the next few days.

Prices will be as originally stated, i.e. £25 per module for .pdf files only or £35 for .pdf and .dxf files.  Where possible I will support everything released, i.e. if you have any questions about construction then I will get back to you either individually or via this forum if I think the question will benefit other users.  If there are huge problems with the plans then I will aim to rectify ASAP and pass on updated plans at no extra cost.  Changes to allow fitment of individual pieces of hardware will not be supported. 

I have made every effort to ensure the construction methodology does not foul the larger components that would need to be fitted to have a high fidelity pit.  I have not taken into account every switch as I do not have accurate sizes for them all and there is also no standardisation for these parts across every different pit.  As such here may be some instances where small modifications will be needed to fit all your own specific switch gear.  I include this clarification as issues with switch gear will not be considered a design issue and as such will not be supported as such.  If you do have a specific concern please contact me first prior to purchase and where possible I will try and answer.

Rules and Regulations for Use

Apologies for this section but I think it important to clarify how you may and may not use these plans.

Firstly, All rights are reserved.  No part of these publications may be reproduced, (with the express exception that any reproduction is for your own individual use) distributed or transmitted in any form or by any means, including photocopying, recording, electronic or mechanical methods, without the prior written permission.  For specific permission requests please contact myself directly.

You can:
Print and make copies for your own use
Pass on information to a CNC bureau for the express purpose of them producing a single set of parts for your own use only.

You cannot:
Make copies for friends
Make copies to spread the cost of the plans across more than one user.
Cut multiple panels from these plans for distribution to third parties, either yourself or via a CNC bureau. i.e. you cannot get an external company to make more than one platform for selling on or “group buys” unless everyone involved in the group buy has purchased original copies of the platform plans from myself.

If you have any questions about the above then please contact me directly.

Thanks,
Sy

Offline ReaperAT

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 10:32:28 AM »
Regarding the plans, for which thickness of the wood plates are these made?

There is the problem with inch and milimetres depending buying the raw materials in US or Europe ... :notes:

Offline CobaltUK

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 12:18:48 PM »
"The Centre Pedestal consists of 26 individual parts made from a variety of 6mm, 12mm and 20mm thick sheet material.  It is envisaged that construction will be with either MDF or Ply sheets although different materials can be used."

I would expect all the freely downloadable build plans yet to come will highlight intended thicknesses. So far it looks like 1/4, 1/2" and 3/4" (or 7/8th depending which way the cut tolerances work) as nearest equivalent.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 12:25:26 PM by CobaltUK »

Offline Symulate

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2015, 01:47:35 PM »
Hello,

The information provided by CobaltUK is correct.  I would also like to add that in most cases the material thickness is important due to the tight tolerances involved in the design phase.  Where possible you should always try to ensure that the specified sheet thickness is used to avoid issues in construction.  If you look through the build manuals you should be able to see where this is the case.

Thanks,
Sy

Offline ReaperAT

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 03:53:50 PM »
I checked some provider for sheet MDF, it seems standard thicknesses are 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 19, 22 mm, no 20 mm.

Thats why i'm asking, 20 mm seems hard to get ....

Offline CobaltUK

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2015, 04:17:53 PM »
Interesting range. Many more sizes than UK major diy store has. No 3,4,5,8,10,12,14 etc there.

Offline Greyfox

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Re: Symulate Cockpit Plans
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2015, 04:39:18 PM »
In Spain I can find only 12mm, no 6 or 20mm...

Being thickness so important, does anybody know a cheap way to find this measures?

Or maybe some company with a CNC router that can work with the different thickness and can send you directly the cut pieces?

Regards